How Long did the Perp Feel He/She had, B4 a Massive Hunt wud Ensue?

Truthb,

I do think that an order wud have been necessary, even if K agreed to it.. I think it wud take more than a homeowner or suspicious party, to allow any device installed..

It wud need to be legal for it to be admissable..

It cud have been in place the next day... even without K's knowledge, and to see wht he had to say about things..

It wud be risky for them to bug it without legal, as if any of the H's said anything, it cud never be used against them..

truthbtold wrote:Elphie said:
I'm wondering if LE needed a warrant because the house was in Kiane's name and if he gave permission for it to be bugged, I'm thinking they might not need a court order. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know how the law reads about such things.
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I think you're right Elphie. Kaine could probably authorize bugging the home as the legal owner (don't think Terri's name is also on the mortgage). The reason why I'm curious about it is because it explains the failed MFH sting, LE appearing to back off of DeDe even though they haven't directly stated that her full alibi is now confirmed, Kaine not forcing Terri out immediately when he took custody... If LE really thought Terri was the one, could they have worked with Rudy to conjure up a MFH story to convince Kaine (or a judge) to allow bugging the house before DeDe moved in with her? Just curious speculation that might explain some of the loose ends...

I always wondered why it was Kiane that moved out first. If LE told him about the alleged MFH plot, he could have gotten a RO the next day or two and forced her out. After all, the attempt to hire was six months earlier and there was no evidence that he or Kiara were in immediate danger.

I have grave doubts about the whole MFH plot anyway. If they had more evidence than a he said/she said, Terri would have been arrested. I think Rudy was in trouble with the LE and was trying to dream up scheme for a deal. I'll give you a MFH, if you drop these other charges ... or something along that line.

awaiting justice,
The topic of this thread is very interesting. Whether the abductor was someone close to Kyron or an unassociated pedophile, the perp couldn't bank on having more than a 30 minute headstart, imo. The only way around that expectation would be if the teacher or someone in the school admin office was involved, which I think is highly unlikely.

If Terri did it:
If we assume Terri was behind this and she tried to cause confusion with the whole doctor's appointment snafu, one would still assume the teacher would have the school call Terri to confirm that she took him just to be sure. I would expect this call to come shortly after roll call (which would have been within 15 minutes of Terri leaving the school). There would be a record of the school calling Terri. If Terri had actually planned the abduction, she would have been planning to head back to the school shortly after leaving. Maybe she was planning on going back right away and that's why she didn't have an alibi (that we know about) for 90 minutes; she was driving around waiting for the call. Personally, I don't think so because there aren't the standard warning signs that we typically see when a parent harms their child and LE hasn't accumulated evidence to name her even a POI after over 6 months of intensive scrutiny.

If a Pedo did it:
So, assume a pedophile either targeted Kyron, or Kyron was just the right type and he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. This, imo, is the most likely scenario and it scares me. The perp would have figured he had a very short amount of time to get what he wanted out of Kyron. He would have expected an alert from the school shortly after taking Kyron, followed by a 911 call and possible road blocks. It makes me fear that Kyron wouldn't have had long to live and the perp would plan to dispose of him close by (which is why I hope you're wrong and LE did check the landfills/dumps, but I fear you're right). Still, a pedo could have instead planned on keeping Kyron and just headed out of town as fast as possible - not expecting road blocks. Less likely, but still possible...

Kyron was sold theory:
I understand there is a lot of talk in Portland about Kyron being sold by Terri. I find it hard to believe that traffickers would deal with a suburb mom to purchase a middle class kid when they could get a child for free from drug-addicted parents or a family that wouldn't likely garner a lot of media attention (sad situation, but true).

My Confession: up until the third month of this investigation, I fantasized that Kyron was taken by the good guys; people who knew he was unhappy, discovered that he was in harm's way, and moved him underground. It seemed (remotely) possible; Terri and a school member could have worked together to make it happen since Kaine wasn't open to any change in Kyron's living situation. I had to let go of the fantasy a couple of months back; someone would have cracked by now and LE wouldn't have spent all the time and money on Sauvie Island searches over the last couple of months if there was any merit to my underground dream. The FBI would have uncovered something by now, I think. Too bad - I loved the idea of Kyron being with people who cared; helping him to heal from whatever was causing him sadness...

Bottom line: No matter who people suspect is guilty of causing Kyron's disspearance or why, it's hard to think any possible suspect would expect to have more than 30 minutes before the disappearance was reported and LE was deployed. It doesn't bode well for Kyron, imo. I so hope I'm wrong..

I wonder if the perp feared being caught before getting off the school grounds. None of the doors were monitored but with all of the people there surely it had to be risky to take Kyron out of there.

For some sickos, that is part of the thrill. Taking a child from a high risk area and getting away with it. I think they really expected the alarm to be raised within an hour. The first 1/2 hour would involve searching the school, the second 1/2 would involve contacting parents, police, etc. And they expected to be far, far away by then. I think they took him and hightailed it out of the area. The first hour was to get to the hiding area. Once they realized no news reports were out, then they had to determine what to do next. Probably, NOT keeping Kyron around. Maybe passing him off, but most likely, eliminating the risk of being caught with him. I think he had 1-2 days at most at that point.

But there are those high profile abductions where the child is found later. Think of Steven Stayner, Shannon Matthews, Shawn Hornbeck, Jaycee Duggard. They are miracles. And it does happen. There is hope.

Sherry wrote:I wonder if the perp feared being caught before getting off the school grounds. None of the doors were monitored but with all of the people there surely it had to be risky to take Kyron out of there.

Sherry that is exactly what I think.. also this perp may have noticed that someone had seen him/her. Whoever took kyron, wud have left there and left town sooooooo fast... as they wud have ecxpected that the entire community was searching for him....

ANy adult who wud have abdcuted a child from their schhol (inclu a paren) wud have thought and expected that the chbilds disappearance wud be noticed in minutes .... where they wud act on it with 911....

Can you imagine the perp.. stopping by 2 diff grocery stores just after committing this crime???????

What wud she have done with Kyron so quickly... wud she not have been worried that ppl wud have been hunting her down to see if she was the one who fpor some reason had Kyron..

It makes me sick that as soon as LE confirmppls alibis, rather than moving on to the next ..they just say that ..she must have had help??? even thpough there is no motive... so sad... still no Kyron..

Funny how this wasnt enough for LE to have considered right off the bat, that it prolly wasnt T...they seem tpo overlook the logics here..

aj sez:
"Can you imagine the perp.. stopping by 2 diff grocery stores just after committing this crime???????"

No, I can't, but there are a vast majority who believe its possible!

Maat wrote:
But there are those high profile abductions where the child is found later. Think of Steven Stayner, Shannon Matthews, Shawn Hornbeck, Jaycee Duggard. They are miracles. And it does happen. There is hope.
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Hoping for a miracle with Kyron!!!

aj sez:
"Can you imagine the perp.. stopping by 2 diff grocery stores just after committing this crime???????"

Sherry says..

No, I can't, but there are a vast majority who believe its possible!

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Ya Sherry.. that is the scary part... these ppl are the ones who make up jurys... too bad ppl (that are so quick to assume guilt) dont realize that as crazy as it is..there is logic in crimes...and it wud be totally illogical to think that Terri wud have gone shopping before she was going to discard Kyron... cllearly she wud have had no time before shopping..

I actually done think many ppl hgave even considered this fact....

PPl want to believe, judge and hate, before really assessing the entire set of circumstances..

Really, if T had anything to do with it, and she wanted to succeed in getting rid of Kyron, she wud have never left herself so open to getting caught before she even had any time...

Also, the high risk offenders (which is exactly what this crime seems like) wud take him, and hope for the best.. I be;lipeve they live always on the verge of getting caught and it is that thrill that motivates them... sometimes they do and sometimes they dont, which just keeps that sick game going on ... till their next victim....

If Terri was the one who wud have masterminded this, there wud have been no high risk circumstances as clearly we know she isnt a high risk pped who wud have committed a crime like this before ...

I agree with you all, but wanted to just point out...

He was last seen (according to what we've been told) about 8:45-9am. We know Terri was at FM's at that time so if he was seen at the school - it rules Terri out UNLESS she had someone else go in and lure him away.

Role call was taken at 10:00. I'm not sure if this fact was known to the perp or not. But certainly the Fair conclusion was posted as 8am - 10am...so there is a good chance that the perp thought they had until 10am before he was noticed missing. Then some time after for searching the school, etc.

I think it's more likely that some guy took him that lives out of the area...BUT I think of Shawn Hornbeck...he was, what 3 miles away? I wonder how many times that fat-FUK made pizza for that family during that 8 year period! Wonder if he delivered pizza to their home before hand...or after...what a piece of work! No one suspected him. I wonder about that...is that part of the challenge too? For cripe sake Shawn went to school, 3 miles away? WTF!

Anyway...the key does seem to be that there was confusion around that Dr appointment. I don't know whether to beilef the school or not...because coincidently it covers their a$$ for losing a child. REGARDLESS, a school should have documentation if a parent takes a child off the premises. The fact that they didn't do this makes me wonder more about that coincidence. And later when his belongings were noticed, on a friday...and no call was made to double check???

I don't think the school was involved, but their lax behavior, in my opinion makes them just as suspicious!

alright, back to point...In order for Terri to have done this, she would have had to have help because she would have never known whether an alarm would go off or not.

A pervert would expect it.

If it was some get a cheap thrill and toss 'em like a pice of trash type of perv, I don't think he would have been the type to go 'shopping' at the school. I think a person like that grabs kids from yards and sidewalks and dumps them somewhere easy and they are found.

There could have been more stars that aliegned in favor of this perp, so I could be wrong...but my guess is that this person took this risk, walked into a busy K-8 school because he could 'choose' a kid, someone that mattered, because his intent was to hold onto him.

Now the big question is whether he got spooked and killed him or whether he's hidden in a backyard fort or in a hidden basement or something like that.

Either way, it looks like only 2 possibilities to me:

- It was Terri & an accomplis and they weren't sure when the alarm would sound, but knew they had to atleast 10 before she was called to verify he was with her at that appointment.

OR

- the perp knew he had 60 mins plus before Kyron was noticed missing and then more before police & the public were notified. A person could get pretty far in that length of time - or secure a hideout right?

I sure would like to hear more about who saw him and when - including the kids. And I'd also like to see any pics of him that day (that he appeared in the background of from other parents) - AND I'd like to hear about all the pictures, I'm assuming that LE asked for these (video and pics) I wonder if they identified each and every person in those pictures. If no stranger showed up, then it seems it would point toward someone associated with the school (or that the perp was caught on film).

I just wish they'd tell us more.

I wonder too, if all this Terri bashing is a ploy. Imagine if they did think a local pizzaman-type had him. What better way to keep Kyron safe than to reassure the perp that they are looking in a totally different direction.

Praying that the truth is learned soon!

KJ, " sweet avatar"

Merry Christmas to all! Hope it was fun, and not too (wallet ) draining lol....

Sherry says ....

"aj sez:
"Can you imagine the perp.. stopping by 2 diff grocery stores just after committing this crime???????"

Sherry says..No, I can't, but there are a vast majority who believe its possible!

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Sherry, you are soo right !!! And here is what I find especially sad about it...

I think we can all agree that " true crime" is prolly one of the most intriguing reading genre's if you will, that we have seen explode....

Many of us today, (thanks to the net) are so much more aware of heinous crimes thus, have become hardcore justice seekers..

The big problem with this, is that anyone can do it, even if they arent " qualified" .. by this I mean that many ppl have been influenced by shows like CSI, Numbers, and Criminal minds where LE are usually right, and have a quick formula to be able to back up their suspiccions..

It baffles me as to how ppl cud be so STUPID to believe that Terri was involved in this..

If more ppl, (including LE)... spent time researching criminolgy, they wud find that ther is LOGIC found in any crime... I hate to use that word as of course crimes shud never take place and in a perfect world, they wud never be committed..

In saavy detective work, you can see follow the logic that the perp used while committing the solved crime.. Crimes are solved by predicting the logic...

There is no logic in anyone believing that Terri was involved..

None at all.... If she intended to be successful in disposing/kiling/selling Kyroon... she wud have never used the school as the setting for her crime to begin.....

Why??? Becasue she wud have never predicted having 6 hours to complete the crime and be able to get home safe and sound, to begin deceit....

It is shocking to me that so many ppl go along with LE, who imo in thbis case, are clearly inexeperienced and lazy....

Sorry to say that as I have respect for LE who go oout and risk their lives everyday, but on the otherhand, too mnay are happy to smear a person based on circumstance where clearly they have support...

I believe the opinion of the gen public is strong enough to get convictions and happens all the time.. and the part that really frustrates me is the ppl who are believers in justice, and have huge voices have a such power in creating huge injustices like wrongful convictions...

The reason I felt strongly from day one that the landfills shud have been checked is because this crime is so consistent with a high risk ped, who clearly took suchj a huge chance, where he wud have had no expectation of time, and for sick thrill of it, prolly took, molested and killed Kyron in less than 3 hours, and a good place to rule out in the very beginning is a landfill.....and up to this point, we will never know as if he is in there, the chances of finding him, get slimmer everyday.. and clearly all the voicese that want Terri convicted.. maybe shud be screaming at LE to get off the a**'s and chekl the landfill....

The reason I posted this this thread, is to hope that anyu possible readers and even media, might think about the question, which is...

WHY THE HE** WUD TERRI HAVE EVER WENT SHOPPING WHEN ANYONE WUD HAVE EXPECTED LE WUD BE INVOLVED IN LESS THAT 30 MINUTES..... ???????????

It would have been far more than 30 minutes. Terri left at 8:45ish and role call was at 10. that is 75 minutes. Now add to it the verifying that he is missing before sounding any alarm...that is at least another 30 minutes, then contact parents, then police. There is a pretty wide window there.

For Terri, (assuming it was her) this is the reason they believe there was an accomplise...it's necessary. She would hand him off, then go establish her alibi.

It works. But it still makes no sense. I can't see someone else helping her do this - who hasn't cracked by now. AND depending on what her real intentions were - pissing off Kaine or just getting rid of the source of her angst...there are much less risky ways of doing that which wouldn't put her future in such jeapordy.

If she wanted to take Kyron away from Kaine - to hurt Kaine. All she would need to do is divorce him. Then Kyron would have been transfered to D.

If she wanted to stay with Kaine, but wanted rid of Kyron) then she could have worked with D to persuade her to pursue custody. Or manipulate Kyron into behavior changes to encourage a change in custody.

If she wanted away from both of them...then leave with Kiara.

If she wanted away from all of them...just run away.

If she was hell bent on hurting them all and didn't care about her life...then jump off a bridge and leave a hateful note behind.

And I just can't wrap my head around the idea that someone would help her harm a child...I just don't.

Terri either went shopping to establish an alibi OR she went shopping because she needed to pick some things up and she was oblivious to what was going on.

KJ,

you said..

" It would have been far more than 30 minutes. Terri left at 8:45ish and role call was at 10. that is 75 minutes. Now add to it the verifying that he is missing before sounding any alarm...that is at least another 30 minutes, then contact parents, then police. There is a pretty wide window there."

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Just to reiterate... the point I am trying to make in this specific thread, is .......

The perp, no matter who it was... a stranger, another parent or their relative, the janitor, Terri, Kyron, D, ....whoever.. dpoesnt matter who.. who ever did this wud have had the idea that Kyron wud be looked for immediately from the point of Kyrons capture...

No perp (whoever it was ..even if it was T D or K) No one wud have been able to predict how long before it was known that Kyron was missing... No one wud have known if soomeone happened to see Kyron leave with someone... the perp wud have automatically wondered ... A. Was he seen leaving?

B. How long before a massive search is done...?

C. Was their a street/school video somewhere that captured it...?

My entire point is ..for anyone who took him, their wud have been a preconceived notion that LE/School/family/community may have been looking immedialtely...
so for anyone to think to Terri did it, is ludicrous as why wud she have gone felt that she had time to stop at 2 diff stores to get meds as she wud have assumed (if she was involved) that ppl wud be hunting her down to see if Kyron was witdh her...

SHe wud have never been so easily available in the community, where anyone wud have seen her and the truck, where it wud such a high risk operation....

As for someone else being involved (where she cud have hannded him off) is also crazy especially when there is no motive, and how wud she have ever felt that she cud take him out of the school without someone seeing her especially when ppl wud have been driving in and out of the school that morning..

This is why this crime is so consitentant with a high risk ped, who took the chance and sick thrill, and got away with it....

Of course society has a huge hand in FACILITATING these type of crimes, as clearly society and LE continue to teach the pigs that they can do this quite easily, as the parents will somehow be blamed......

How sad.. to think that LE cudnt even be bothered to check the both landfills which were only 6 miles away....
What a great message to any pig out there...

They may not be checking the landfills because I read online somewhere that most of the trash is not dumped in the landfills, but sent through an incenerator.

Johnabelle,

I still find it totally unbelieveable that the landfills arent checked..

If incenerarors are used, mabe it wud mean that it wudnt be such a big task for them to try.. hopefully they will .. An open area like this has been used by many monster pigs..